Card Counter Catchers Speak Out
Developers, authors, vendors of card counting systems for blackjack make money by testifying against… card-counters!
DGGRANT 12/25/2000
Since the latest con from the con men is that casino surveillance conditions we say exist are not to be found. And that casinos just love to lose money to card counters, (sure, right Harvey, aliases et al) I thought it appropriate to repost the SWORN TESTIMONY of the former card counter catcher from the Mirage Casino in Las Vegas.
After you read what the card counter catchers are **really** saying under oath to the courts, then you will begin to appreciate how much the con men are deceiving the suckers when they fraudulently represent that they can win with card counting systems.
The following quotations were quotations taken from Michael Riordan's (AKA MAX RUBIN) depositions, sworn and deposed by Mr. Riordan on 08/30/1994 at the Tropicana Hotel at approximately 1400 hours. This document is a matter of public record was secured from the TropWorld law firms in Atlantic City. You may verify the authenticity of these quotations by contacting our lawyer, Mr. Howard A. Altschuler, Esq., at Lawc...@worldnet.att.net for positive verification that the following quotations have been taken directly from Mr. Riordan's aforesaid sworn testimony.
Mr. Riordan's sworn depositions were held when Arnold Snyder, Stanford Wong, Anthony Curtis, Peter Griffin and Max Rubin joined with card counter catchers and casinos and casino spokespersons to provide testimony against card counters. (Well-paid testimony I should add). Again, if you have ANY doubts about ANY contents of this post, contact our lawyer and hear the truth directly from an officer of the court.
I will start the sworn deposition much earlier than the key responses, and continue well after so the con men cannot claim I am posting anything out of context.
Q: Lawyer Daily to Michael Riordan (Max Rubin): "How long did you work as a card counter catcher?"
A: Rubin Answers: "A year, year and a half."
Q: Lawyer Daily: "Could you tell me what your duties as a card counter catcher were?"
A: Rubin Answers: "Several. One I was--I had the pit, the double deck pit on grave yard where essentially the high limit play was on the Mirage on that particular shift and I was responsible for our looking at the high limit play, observe the betting patterns, those sorts of things. Observing just the act the people put on, trying to identify people that were together and recognizing some sort of team play."
(Max Rubin continues to answer the question without interruption:)
"And then I would actually go into the back, take breaks, and then use the surveillance cameras because the surveillance people there weren't very good at what they were doing. Typically that's the way a lot of casinos are. And I would go back there and evaluate the play. And also they would tape it. I would review the tapes and actually analyze the percentage edge the people would have on any given situation and do a compilation of number of hands and I would actually extrapolate from that what their expectation was, say, on 100 hands, and looked like those people might be doing something."
(Rubin continues to answer the question without interruption): Rubin: "If they were, if the people continued to pay on day shift or swing shift, then they would have somebody also evaluate them, sometimes an outside counter. Typically, if one person identifies them as a card counter they have to have somebody else verify it, a second verification - and sometimes three--."
Q: Daily to Rubin: Page 9, line 18: "Who would be an outside counter?"
A: Rubin to Daily: Page 9, line 19: "Howard Grossman."
Q: Daily to Rubin: "Was he employed by the Mirage, was he an employee of Mirage?"
A: Rubin to Daily: "I'm not sure what his status was, how they paid him. I believe he acts as a consultant on some type of hourly or monthly basis, which is --whatever they pay him is plenty, too much."
Q: Daily to Rubin: "What were you paid as a card counter catcher?"
A: Rubin to Daily: "Not very much. Hundred and - I believe $187 per day."
Q: Daily to Rubin: "So there would be an analysis of a player. What would you do, you recorded his different moves and then you would have them analyzed?"
A: Rubin to Daily: "Um-hum. The different bets, if somebody suspected they might be doing something, (counting cards) and they actually record every table at the Mirage. There's two cameras on 24 hours a day and those cameras are good for six days. So anything that happened for the past six days, they can pull up and backtrack that player's play. And they have a rating system over there and you knew precisely what table they were on and what seat they are sitting in. If somebody suspected someone (of card counting) they would call surveillance, pull up Table 3 from three days ago between the hours of 6 p.m. and 9 p.m., seat #1 and see how the guy bet."
Q: Daily to Rubin: "If the guy was identified as a card counter what would be done?"
A: Rubin to Daily: "Several things would be done. They would look in the books, the Griffin books, which you're familiar with Griffin's books out here. It's a compilation of books out here that pictures have been taken of alleged counters, alleged people that have been to dinner with counters, the whole thing. It's really an industry joke, but there is a fellow Griffin who has a detective agency and he gets mug shots of people and they put them in this book and they try to use that to identify (card counters). They will see if the people identified or a name matches up with faces and names in that book."
Q: Daily to Rubin: "Besides the face and name would there be any other information in that book?"
A: Rubin to Daily: "Associates, affiliations. They call the people in those books suspects and they would say, Suspect is expected of being, A: A computer player and this and that. There are 50 things they can suspect somebody of doing, but primarily it's for card counters, is to identify them for the people in surveillance. Now back to the original question which was what would we do."
Q: Daily to Rubin: "Would there be an address for some of the people if the addresses were known?"
A: Rubin to Daily: "I don't think so. I don't remember seeing an address."
Q: Daily to Rubin: "So my original question, what would be done (if a person was suspected of counting cards).
A: Rubin to Daily: "What would be done at the Mirage, it's different than most clubs. The Mirage policy, unless it's somebody who's been in the book a lot or they are, quote, notorious, they would simply tell the person they have to flat bet from this point forward. Flat bet meaning you have to make the same bet every time you wagered on a blackjack table, otherwise you can play any other games. That's typical what would happen. If it's somebody who had either been told to flat bet before and was now not flat betting, they would tell them they can't play blackjack. Third time if you happen to come in and they told you flat bet, and they say you couldn't play and you subsequently played, they would tell you that you cannot come in the casino any and they read you the trespass act. And the trespass act essentially means next time you stop on the property they will arrest you and take you downtown and fine you $50 and let you go."
Page 5, line 14: Q: Daily to Rubin: "And briefly could you give us your background in working in the casino industry?
Start page 5, Line 16: A: Rubin to Daily: "Started off in 1966 parking cars as a valet parker at the Golden Nugget. Through the years going to college I was a dealer, probably been a dealer for eight years to ten - eight years anyway on the Las Vegas strip. Been a casino manager in North Shore Club, Lake Tahoe. Been pit boos, floor man, etcetera, etcetera on the Las Vegas strip. At the end, dealer at the Riviera, Frontier, Sands, Mirage."
"Vice president/operator, casino manager at the TeePee Bingo and Indian Casino in Langston, Oklahoma, and was owner/operator/manager in Indio, California. It was known as the Desert Oasis Indian casino for five years."
"Was the owner/operator of a consulting company that also assisted with management at California Card Room down in Los Angeles. That's the extent of my jobs and owning places."
Daily to Michael Riordan (AKA MAX RUBIN), page 14, line 10.
Daily: "When you were working at the Mirage, how much money was the Mirage spending to catch card counters, if you can give me an estimate based upon you working there?"
Mr. Bradley (TropWorld's lawyer): "Is this really relevant to his opinion?"
Mr. Daily (Sigma's lawyer): "This is the last question along this line and will be the end of it."
Max Rubin (AKA Michael Riordan): "I can tell you the process they went through to catch counters. They had card counting classes to teach all of their people what card counting was, and we actually went through a six-to eight-hour series where they would teach you about card counting, certain recognition factors for the people that were very easily identifiable for the average floor person so they would at least have a vague notion of what card counting was."
(Riordan ((Max Rubin)) continues on page 15 line 3 still in response to the initial question):
"But their actual expense? I don't know if you want to look at the capital cost, that sort of thing, they had three, four million dollars in surveillance equipment there. As far as actual stuff that we are doing that, they tended to have their staff wear several hats. You might work the floor and then if they suspected a problem they would pull you off."
(Riordan ((Max Rubin)) continues on line 11, page 15 still answering the initial question:)
"And if they always had an extra person on each shift that could float around, so somebody could be taken out of the standard work force and do some other job, such as catching counters or analyzing or training some staff, whatever it may be."
Lawyer Daily's very next question: Daily to Max: Q: "Have you ever seen or reviewed any studies which indicate how much casinos would lose if they did not take measures against card counters?"
Max replies on page 15, line 19 to the Daily question: "Oh, I saw the Sigma Report which was obviously self-serving because it was written by some people that want to count cards. I don't think you can do that, whatever study. I could come up with a study tomorrow, I could tell you what my interpretation of it is, but you can't do that."
End of deposition excerpts
1. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey and associates) claimed that dealers were not taught how to identify card counters. The sworn card counter catcher testimony posted herein proves irrefutably that Harvey Choen Ph. D MYASS and his friends are obviously lying to this newsgroup in respect to this issue.
2. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey Cohen and associates) claimed that a good *act* would allow you to get away with card counting. The sworn card counter catcher testimony posted herein proves irrefutably that Harvey and his friends are obviously lying to this newsgroup in respect to this issue.
3. The con men casino agents posting here claimed that it was impossible for a casino to review each table for card counters. The sworn card counter catcher testimony posted herein proves irrefutably that Harvey aliases et al and his friends are obviously lying to this newsgroup in respect to this issue.
4. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey and his associates) claimed that by moving around between casinos you could avoid card counting heat. The sworn card counter catcher testimony posted herein proves irrefutably that Harvey and his friends are obviously lying to this newsgroup in respect to this issue.
5. The con men casino agents posting here (like BRubin, aliases et al) claimed that your photograph was never taken nor was placed in any book or that it was impossible to match up photographs of card counters. The sworn card counter catcher testimony posted herein proves irrefutably that the con men system hucksters are obviously lying to this newsgroup in respect to this issue.
6. The con men casino agents posting here (like Abdul, Harvey and his associates) claimed their card counting systems would beat real world casinos despite countermeasures. The sworn card counter catcher testimony posted herein proves irrefutably that Abdul and his friends are obviously lying to this newsgroup in respect to this issue.
7. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey and his associates) claimed you are not breaking any laws if you count cards. Yet we find that trespass violations are common. The sworn card counter catcher testimony posted herein proves irrefutably that Harvey and his friends are obviously lying to this newsgroup in respect to this issue. Clearly if you want a criminal record along with losing your money, purchasing a card counting system from one of these hucksters is the way to go.
8. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey Cohen and his associates) claimed that a suspect card counter was never videotaped. The sworn card counter catcher testimony posted herein proves irrefutably that Harvey and his friends are obviously lying to this newsgroup in respect to this issue.
9. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey and his associates) claimed that outside card counters were never used to help casinos identify suspect card counters. The sworn card counter catcher testimony posted herein proves irrefutably that Harvey and his friends are obviously lying to this newsgroup in respect to this issue.
10. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey and his associates) claimed that even if you associate with a suspect card counter you will not be erroneously identified as a suspect card counter yourself. The sworn card counter catcher testimony posted herein proves irrefutably that Harvey and his friends are obviously lying to this newsgroup in respect to this issue.
11. The con men casino agents posting here (like Harvey and his associates) claimed that classes were never held to teach dealers and floor personnel how to immediately identify card counters. They lied (and in fact some of these system-huckster authors WERE THE INSTRUCTORS teaching dealers how to identify card counters. The sworn card counter catcher testimony posted herein proves irrefutably that Harvey and his friends are obviously lying to this newsgroup in respect to this issue.
And finally, note once again what Mr. Riordan (Max Rubin) said about the Sigma Report: "Oh, I saw the Sigma Report which was obviously self-serving because it was written by some people that want to count cards."
I have posted several times that Harvey, Harkness BRubin, BingoBilly and their aliases are simply fabricating stories in a feeble attempt to discredit me. They know I have years of more in-casino experience than they will ever have, and that my teams won more money than any others. They are afraid their con game will be exposed by someone that really knows the details in respect to using a card counting system effectively against a real world casino. This post proves the con men are flagrantly lying to this newsgroup, and fabricating malicious libel in an attempt to discredit anyone that will tell the truth about their system failures.
Note how court and sworn testimony has a way of bringing out the truth. Also note that this deposition was taken long before I started to post on rec.gambling.blackjack. So although Mr. Riordan was working for the TropWorld, he had no reason to lie about anything else involved in catching or identifying suspect card counters. What was it he said again, "50 WAYS YOU COULD BE PLACED IN THE SUSPECT CARD COUNTER BOOK!" Yep that is what he said.
Also consider THIS DEPOSITION WAS TAKEN IN 1994. Since that date the casinos have went high-tech. So if you thought that Max Rubin's description of how suspect card counters were identified then, you should hear how much easier it is for casinos today to label anyone a card counter in less than five minutes.
Card counting systems are a BIG CON. Max Rubin's (A.K.A. Mike Riordan) sworn testimony (and dozens of other similar type depositions provided to the courts by other card counter catchers during the Campione case) provides irrefutable proof that the authors and software hucksters have been lying all along. They are using the fraudulent claim that card counting systems can still win to sell their worthless and dangerous systems, books and software. This post provides clear proof the con men hucksters and casino agents are lying to this newsgroup and their sucker clients.
Doug Grant (Tm)
For the best mathematical casino gambling strategy (approach) for non-system players, read:
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