Discrimination, Defamation, Lawyers, Opinions on Laws in the Forum of Lawyers.com
The Casino Control Commission (NJCCC) rules that skilled players may be discriminated against with impunity
By Ion Saliu, Truthful Lawyer-With-No-Clients At-Large ©
Posted at the Discrimination Message Board, Lawyers.com:
//www.prairielaw.com/messageboards/message.asp?channelId=21&subId=&mId=401219&mbId=9 (IF it still exists!)
Discrimination & Defamation Complaints against Casino & Commission (NJCCC)
By: Ion Saliu
Date: 10/14/2003 12:38:57 PM
I wrote down in a notebook my losses and winnings at a blackjack table. The casino was Taj Mahal, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USA. The date was July 22, 2003. The casino executives mistreated me because of my record keeping. I was asked to leave the game in an unacceptable fashion, in flagrant violation of my civil rights. I filed a complaint with a watchdog agency, the Casino Control Commission of the state of New Jersey (NJCCC).
The state government agency did not respond in 30 days, as an (unwritten?) law requires. Meanwhile, I had brought my case to the attention of the FBI. I asked the state agency for an explanation. I also informed the agency that I had informed the federal government as well. The state agency responded immediately. The law enforcement branch of the Casino Control Commission informed me: “We are collecting additional information relevant to your complaint” (August 26, 2003).
The Casino Control Commission ruled on October 3, 2003. The ruling is unfavorable to me. The ruling is based on one point: A piece of correspondence from Trump Taj Mahal Casino Resort.
“As impacted by N.J.A.C Section 19:47-8.1, due to card counting possibilities, we do not allow patrons to write down the outcome of blackjack hands.”
I am a criminal for I employed an illegal device to track the remaining cards in the deck—a notebook! Other criminals use such devices as hidden miniature cameras, even voodoo dolls to see each and every card in the deck!
The Commission has never seen or asked me to produce evidence. The main piece of evidence is my notebook that led directly to my being mistreated and discriminated against. The casino does not dispute my having been mistreated. They imply their action was legally correct since they were dealing with a criminal.
We are talking here about casinos in Atlantic City, New Jersey. Forget about card counting. Yes, let's say, I am a card counter. So, what? Rulings of the Supreme Court of New Jersey prohibit discrimination against skilled players. The Atlantic City casinos do not offer games of skill, but games of chance. A game of chance implies fairness. The odds (probabilities) are independent from humans, therefore humans cannot change the odds, and therefore humans cannot influence the outcome of a game of chance. That's solid mathematics (theory of probability) and a great philosophical approach on the part of some judges.
A card counter does not change the odds of the game of blackjack. Neither does a notebook. I quote here from a recommended blackjack book: Best Blackjack—Powerful, Easy-To-Master Card-Counting techniques, by Frank Scoblete. Says he: ”But the casinos can't throw people out in New Jersey, ever since the late Ken Uston took them to court in 1982 and the New Jersey Supreme Court ruled that it was illegal to ban someone from a game because that someone had skill...” (page 134).
The Anthony Campione case (1987): ”But Judge Barry Weinberg was not buying what Tropword was selling in this case and ruled that, indeed, Tropworld was in violation of the law every time it told Campione that he couldn't increase his bet to a certain amount when others at the table were allowed to do so. He also wrote: “It is discriminatory to allow others at the same table to play two hands while limiting Campione to one.” Weinberg also hammered the casino because at the times the dealer was told to skip over Campione during a round and at other times the dealer was told to short pay him…” (page 134).
Please read detailed information at my Web site (the Resources section).
Interested lawyers, please feel free to contact me.
Ion Saliu
Sorry - you are wrong
By: LynnM
Date: 10/14/2003 1:30:18 PM
The law allows the casino to prohibit making notes at the table. Your civil rights were in no way violated and you have no action against the casion or the commission.
re: No, sorry - you are wrong!
By: Ion Saliu
Date: 10/14/2003 1:59:55 PM
What position are you talking from: A casino employee or an independent legal advisor?
What LAW are you talking about? Furthermore, is it federal or state law? What law may stand against rulings of a Supreme Court?
I am afraid you just followed an emotional impulse to enter the debate. On the other hand, I express my thanks to you and anyone who takes the time to read my message.
Ion Saliu
The Philosophical Science of Winning
re: No, sorry - you are wrong!
By: cbg Date: 10/14/2003 2:44:46 PM
Lynn is an attorney with over 25 years of experience. What are your qualifications? Reputable lawyers are not trolling these boards looking for clients, and the rules of this site forbid specific referrals. If you are looking for an attorney, you would be better served by utilizing the Find a Lawyer section to the right of this screen.
re: No, sorry - you are wrong!
By: 12BME Date: 10/15/2003 6:09:38 AM
I agree! If one doesn't want to hear open, honest advice, then don't post. Keep up the great comments and suggestions, Lynn!
Guess again
By: LynnM
Date: 10/14/2003 3:54:11 PM
I am speaking as an attorney with well over 20 years experience. You apparently have virtually NO understanding of the law.
1. The commission provided you with the cite to the applicable NJ statute (N.J.A.C Section 19:47-8.1) - start by going to the library and reading it.
2. The only discrimination which is illegal discrimination is that which has been set out by law, to wit: age, race, gender, religion. etc. To the best of my knowledge no legislative bidy has added "people taking notes in casinos" to the list of protected categories. You got a factually correct response to your post. If you only want people to lie to you and tell you that you are right instead of explaining the facts you really should say so in your post.
re: Discrimination & Defamation Complaints Against Casino & Commission
By: Ford
Date: 10/14/2003 6:55:04 PM
I'm a poker guy myself. A casino can act to prevent abuse of the game. Taking notes in a notebook can be prohibited UNLESS there is a law which protects this, which there would not be. Notes in a notebook could be written in code so as to provide a mechanism for counting the cards. You COULD BE cheating, so they do not have to allow it. The thing about skilled players is not on point. This isn't about any skill which you possess, but about possible cheating.
re: Discrimination & Defamation Complaints Against Casino & Commission
By: Ion Saliu
Date: 10/15/2003 10:11:13 AM
Please keep the comments coming! Thanks!
I did receive a different perspective as well, privately. “Don't give your adversary a hint!”
Your points reflect the casino defense strategy. Some of them can be found in Uston vs. Resorts and Campione vs. Tropworld.
You are not casino players, however. You would have known that casinos DO offer paper and pencil to patrons! Are the casinos entrapping their clients?
This point is slanderous:
“This isn't about any skill which you possess, but about possible cheating.”
Have you seen my paper notebook and pen?
It'd be excusable only if you were the casino defense lawyer!
Ion Saliu
Philosophical Science of Gambling Winning
One last time
By: LynnM
Date: 10/15/2003 12:24:47 PM
The law SPECIFICALLY allows casinos to toss people for making notes about their play. You have no constitutional guarantee to gamble. Nothing you have posted gives rise to ANY legal action, including your claim that another poster's comment was slanderous - it was not.
One more time
By: Ion Saliu
Date: 10/15/2003 12:55:53 PM
You are really into it! Thanks for "practicing" with me. I mean it.
”The law SPECIFICALLY allows casinos to toss people for making notes about their play.”
"SPECIFICALLY": You never specify the law or laws of such provisions!
The casinos offer paper and pencil to patrons. The legal advisor of Taj Mahal stated at the time of my filing the complaint that, in fact, the casinos encourage the players to take notes at the roulette table, baccarat, etc.
Are the casinos breaking a law that favors the casinos themselves?
Or, are the casinos accessories to crime? (They give me paper, I use it — writing on it — then I am accused of committing a crime!)
”You have no constitutional guarantee to gamble.” Oh, yes? How about —
The casinos have no constitutional guarantee to be in the gambling business.
The casinos have no constitutional guarantee to discriminate against skilled gamblers.
The casinos have no constitutional guarantee to slander skilled players.
See rulings in the Ken Uston and Anthony Campione cases.
”Nothing you have posted gives rise to ANY legal action, including your claim that another poster's comment was slanderous - it was not.”
It's not the case of legal action against another poster whose comment was slanderous. We are not in a court of law. Don't you know of freedom of speech? Perhaps you think, again, ”You have no constitutional guarantee to freedom of speech”…
Ion Saliu
Philosophical Science of Casino Gambling
re: One more time
By: LynnM
Date: 10/15/2003 3:38:39 PM
I most certainly DID provide the statute:
1. The commission provided you with the cite to the applicable NJ statute (N.J.A.C Section 19:47-8.1) - start by going to the library and reading it. Several people (including a few of us lawyers) have explained to you why your legal position is incorrect. You have the absolute right to continue in spite of your error.
A note, Ion . . .
By: Erik, Community Moderator - erik@lawyers.com
Date: 10/15/2003 3:13:25 PM
If you came to the boards looking for information, you've received it. If you came for people to tell you that you are right, that's NOT the purpose of the boards. "The casinos offer paper and pencil to patrons. The legal advisor of Taj Mahal stated at the time of my filing the complaint that, in fact, the casinos encourage the players to take notes at the roulette table, baccarat, etc." Even if they do this, there is nothing illegaly about telling you that you cannot keep your notebook, unless they do it for an illegal reason. Such reason would be based on your age, race, sex, religion or other protected classification.
"The casinos have no constitutional guarantee to be in the gambling business." No, but that's not relevant.
"It's not the case of legal action against another poster whose comment was slanderous." Ford's comment was not accusing you of cheating. It was not slanderous, and it violates our rules for you to attack him by accusing him of slandering you.
"We are not in a court of law. Don't you know of freedom of speech? Perhaps you think, again, ”You have no constitutional guarantee to freedom of speech”…" As against a private entity, like this website, you do not. The First Amendment applies against Congress, per the language "Congress shall make no law . . ." Again, if you are looking for people to rubber-stamp your theory, that's not happening. It is NOT appropriate to reply by telling everyone they are wrong. Please post accordingly. Thanks. Erik
Community Moderator, Attorney (With-No-Clients :))
Case Closed!
By: Ion Saliu
Date: 10/16/2003 11:22:46 AM
You, the law people here, are more temperamental than a complainant! Or an accused, as one wrongly assumed (he should have asked me a specific question).
I posted here presuming it was a public forum. I believe it is a public forum. My posting has generated both negative reaction, and positive interest.
The positive interest has manifested as sensible legal questions, such as:
- was my notebook a computer (as in laptop) or an ordinary paper notebook;
- cheating in a casino is a crime; did the casino press charges against me? (I am not a cheater; I am a free man; the casino did not press charges against me; they do when patrons or employees cheat.)
- the casino law does not have a provision against WRITING, but against the use of illegal devices (cameras, etc.);
- etc.
Both forms of reaction are very useful to me. Frankly, I can only wish the casinos would be represented by those who expressed a negative reaction to my posting! They don't seem to be busy, either! I am busy big time now.
Case Closed!
Ion Saliu,
The Philosophical Science of Winning
PS
If you wonder what N.J.A.C or N.J.A.C. stand for, you are not alone. The correspondence I received from the New Jersey Casino Control Commission does not offer a hint. Since my notebook was wrongly assumed to be an illegal device, or confused for a criminal device, perhaps N.J.A.C. stands for "neurotic jingoistic assessment confusion".
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